EU Green Deal Reality Check with Pascale Moreau

00:00:08: But I do believe we have the massive opportunity to continue the Green Deal.

00:00:15: This was the Golden Age, let's say, the last five years with the Green Deal force.

00:00:22: Everybody was aligned.

00:00:24: There was not the geopolitical tension that we have, but what that Golden Age of the past five years, it basically set the ground for all the work we can do now.

00:00:36: It's actually in the law, it's the strategy, it's not coming out.

00:00:40: So we actually... now can we push?

00:00:44: It's something that I would never ever thought of having such a green deal roadmap when I started working eighteen years ago.

00:00:53: Even in two thousand fifteen when I started in the text time strategy, it was really push.

00:00:59: for everybody to work towards common legislation.

00:01:02: Now it's a no-brainer.

00:01:04: Yes, there is a need for legislation to drive sustainability.

00:01:08: It's a massive shift in the way to look into what we can do.

00:01:14: And yes, there are ups and downs, but if you're a sustainability believer, if you are a changemaker or a doer, you don't stop when there are a bit of challenges.

00:01:25: And what blocks?

00:01:26: That's where innovation happens.

00:01:28: Sustainability is not dead.

00:01:29: The Green Deal is not dead.

00:01:31: It's just need to push through.

00:01:33: Welcome to New Horizons, the podcast for nature lovers, auto enthusiasts and sustainability minds.

00:01:39: I'm Fabio Nenzer, and today's guest is Pascal Moreau, who knows EU policymaking from the inside out.

00:01:46: In twenty nineteen, she founded Ohana Public Affairs, a Brussels-based consultancy specializing in sustainability.

00:01:54: The firm assists companies in navigating the European Union's policy landscape.

00:01:59: In just six years Pascal has built one of the most respected consultancies, combining deep policy expertise with the drive of an entrepreneur.

00:02:09: At a time when business faced growing uncertainty around shifting EU priorities, evolving regulations and fragmented timelines, her work helps cut through the noise, turning legislative complexity into real business readiness and opportunity.

00:02:26: With a new EU commission taking office in twenty twenty four, the future of the Green Deal is under pressure.

00:02:33: Is Europe still on track to become net zero by twenty fifty and a sustainable market?

00:02:39: Or is the EU shifting course?

00:02:42: Let's find out.

00:02:43: Welcome to the show Pascal Moroll.

00:02:45: Hi Fabian.

00:02:46: Thank you for having me.

00:02:47: Looking forward to the conversation.

00:02:51: Pascal.

00:02:51: You've been very successful.

00:02:53: You have grown to ten employees over only six years.

00:02:58: Tell us about yourself.

00:02:59: How did you get the idea of Ohana public affairs?

00:03:03: What made you identify the momentum?

00:03:07: Yeah, it's been quite a journey.

00:03:13: So I have a sustainability background and public affairs background always worked in that.

00:03:20: information and communication technologies to textile industry and back in two thousand nineteen.

00:03:27: actually it was the right time because we could see within our industry so the textile and that door that the commission was growing their pressure on our industry from a sustainability standpoint because that was the only industry well one of the only industry not having been regulated from a sustainability standpoint.

00:03:50: So that was the momentum, clearly.

00:03:53: And from a personal perspective, I wanted to move that from Amsterdam to Brussels, with some people might find strange.

00:04:00: But that's all came together to set up Oana.

00:04:03: And yeah, become what it is now, ten people.

00:04:07: Yeah.

00:04:08: So cool.

00:04:10: So let's dive into understanding a little bit the big picture of the EU policy landscape and the EU market.

00:04:18: How does the EU work?

00:04:21: in simple terms?

00:04:22: Yes, that's the big question, right?

00:04:25: In simple terms.

00:04:27: So it's not that complicated or different from a national government, to be fair.

00:04:33: So you have three big institutions.

00:04:37: The Commission, the Council, which is basically the group of all the member states.

00:04:42: and the parliament.

00:04:44: There are some links in between the three.

00:04:46: So when the elections pass from the government, the parliament, it influenced the commission.

00:04:53: So the main winner of the parliament is actually going to lead the commission.

00:04:59: And the commission is kind of what you have with ministries and governments.

00:05:04: They are the one with the force and the power to propose legislation.

00:05:08: And the parliament and the council would be two chambers.

00:05:12: reviewing the law and influencing the legislation.

00:05:16: So that's why you always see proposal from the commission being reviewed by the parliament and the member states and then getting into the new legislation.

00:05:25: And so in simple terms, that's how it works.

00:05:29: And then the member states need to implement the EU legislation into the national legislation.

00:05:38: And in twenty twenty four, there were new elections and dramatic shift to the right.

00:05:45: What has changed?

00:05:46: And what's the mood like in Brussels right now?

00:05:50: So maybe I will start with what has changed.

00:05:54: And then you will understand why the mood has changed.

00:05:58: So what has changed is that the greens and the liberals that were quite progressive with the green deal.

00:06:11: sustainability legislation have lost power, and it's now more the right, as you said, and the far right.

00:06:17: So it's way more business-conscious.

00:06:21: Competitiveness is on top of the agenda, but also because of the geopolitics, also defense is on top of the agenda.

00:06:29: So there's been a shift between progressive, social, environmental push to more conservative push.

00:06:38: Let's put it that way.

00:06:41: and also towards simplification, so making sure the laws are not too complicated and too burdensome on companies in a nutshell.

00:06:53: The mood, it depends to who you ask the question, being a sustainability believer at heart and coming from there, from in my, you know, in my professional life, I would say it's not that fun.

00:07:11: It's a bit daunting sometimes because of that full shift towards competitiveness and simplification, which can be seen as deregulation, so lowering down the bar.

00:07:27: But I would say the forces are getting together to slow down this path and to move it back to, let's say, a central point where sustainability is still important.

00:07:42: So I feel a hope that we're going to correct the course from a sustainability standpoint.

00:07:50: Before we talk about and deep dive into the impacts and changes within new elections, you mentioned the European Green Deal in just three sentences, maybe.

00:08:03: What is the EU Green Deal about?

00:08:07: It's the big strategy, a roadmap, that the Commission published in two thousand nineteen, and with the goal that this roadmap will pave the way for the EU to become the first climate neutral continent.

00:08:25: That means that we will reduce the greenhouse gases by twenty fifty.

00:08:32: also putting some emphasis on circular economy to make it a real business case and to also enhance just transition.

00:08:40: So no one is left behind.

00:08:43: And they also targeted several sectors and textile was one of them.

00:08:49: So that's why we had a textile strategy and textile is everywhere in all the legislation.

00:08:55: So it's also important for the people listening and to the podcast as ad-door lovers, let's say.

00:09:04: So one main target of the EU Green Deal is to the European market to become net zero by twenty fifty with all the changes in taking place.

00:09:15: Are we still on track then

00:09:17: for

00:09:17: net zero by twenty fifty?

00:09:21: Good question.

00:09:21: I wish it's in progress.

00:09:26: There have been different legislation put forward, for example, renewable energy directive, energy efficiency directive.

00:09:33: So with both targets, for example, the renewable energy directive has as a target that at least forty two point five percent of the energy mix comes from renewable energy by twenty thirty.

00:09:47: But the issue is.

00:09:49: that member states still need to create this national legislation and ensure they actually work towards their national targets.

00:09:58: And that's where, yes, we aren't trying because there are the goals, but the actual implementation and the concrete things needs to happen still.

00:10:08: What we see, though, is from a circular economy where we see a lot of efforts towards the industry.

00:10:16: So I think this is also going to move forward.

00:10:20: And hopefully by twenty fifteen we'll have some good news.

00:10:27: But yes, there's still a long way to go.

00:10:31: And with this uncertainty in the air, what's your advice at the moment for businesses?

00:10:38: I would say continue.

00:10:40: And there's still lots of legislation coming your way.

00:10:45: I know it's daunting, I know there are lots of uncertainty, so should you implement the law, not implement the law, invest in it.

00:10:53: But when it comes to circular economy, there are end product, eco-design requirements.

00:11:02: This is still ongoing, so you will have as a business to really implement these species of legislation and investing in eco-design, investing in fiber to fiber if we are thinking of the textile industry is something that is going to happen.

00:11:19: It's on the horizon.

00:11:21: So continuing investing in this is really key.

00:11:25: And we can see also from a standard report that have been looking into all the key companies, they're really pushing for companies to promote renewable energy in the supply chain.

00:11:40: I know also in previous podcasts, with iceberg, for example, you mentioned a project in Vietnam.

00:11:47: This is the kind of efforts that will be recognized by policymakers and really make sense to continue.

00:11:58: And besides fulfilling compliance, where do you see the biggest opportunities for businesses?

00:12:08: That's a good one.

00:12:10: I would say traceability.

00:12:13: is a really important opportunity.

00:12:16: You can really see big companies continuing working on this.

00:12:21: It's been an ask from NGOs, Civil Society, for a long time to understand where you are producing, where your products come from.

00:12:30: It's also what you will have to do from a legislation perspective, because you need to have the data to prove that you actually comply.

00:12:38: So it goes hand in hand.

00:12:39: Civil Society pressure, legislation pressure, and also to understand how to drive the impact.

00:12:47: So I would say this is a great opportunity.

00:12:51: And so engagement with your supply chain, because facing uncertainty, you need to build long-term relationship to explain what is happening within the EU so they can get ready.

00:13:04: So really engaging with your supply chain, with your suppliers, seeing them as long-term partner.

00:13:10: will actually help your business case in Europe and will help them also to just make sure they still you know being able to provide you with the services and the opportunities that you need.

00:13:21: so that for me is even if it's a business case you don't need to wait for.

00:13:26: you know like the law it should be embedded in your in your way of working.

00:13:32: There's been a lot of noise lately around the omnibus simplification which.

00:13:36: among other things touches on the corporate sustainability due diligence directive and also the corporate sustainability reporting directive.

00:13:45: I'd like to take a closer look at these two legislative frameworks with you.

00:13:49: Pascal, how have they been or how might they be affected by the omnibus simplification?

00:13:56: Some are even saying sustainability due to these simplifications is dead.

00:14:01: Is that from your perspective really the case?

00:14:04: And what amendments are currently in preparation?

00:14:08: So maybe to take a step back before diving into the CSRD and CSEE.

00:14:17: So duty agents, reporting and duty agents.

00:14:20: Simplification is one of the targets of this mandate at EU level.

00:14:25: For the next five years, their objectives is read to reduce by twenty-five percent reporting and administrative burden.

00:14:34: So when we talk about omnibus and we only think of reporting and duty agents, actually, there is a wave of omnibuses coming.

00:14:44: So get ready for that.

00:14:46: You will hear lots of different omnibuses coming up.

00:14:50: So it's going to be fun the next five years.

00:14:53: But coming back to your ask on reporting and duty agents, important to note is that those pieces of legislation have been already worked on by companies and transposed into national legislation.

00:15:10: So, for example, I know a lot of companies that have been developing their reporting according to the existing legislation and duty agents has just been published the latest load last year.

00:15:24: So we're basically reviewing something that nobody has, at least for duty agents, implemented.

00:15:30: So it's a bit catch-twenty-two.

00:15:31: They are saying it's too complicated, but we never tested it.

00:15:36: And it's been a push from, strangely enough, from Germany and France will have their own pieces of legislation on duty agents.

00:15:44: So there is a political game.

00:15:48: behind the door on this.

00:15:51: But what it means when it comes to simplification and looking at the law.

00:15:56: So when it comes to the implementation time, so by when companies need to comply with the legislation, it's been delayed.

00:16:06: So it's already, data has already been approved.

00:16:09: It's the so-called stop the clock if you look on the internet.

00:16:14: For the reporting, so CSRD.

00:16:17: it's moving to twenty twenty five twenty eight twenty eight twenty twenty nine.

00:16:21: so a year delay postponement and for duty agents it will start in twenty eight and twenty twenty nine.

00:16:30: what it means in terms of content and that's something where everybody like the institution are negotiating at the moment is that the scope is going to be narrower so it's going to be way less company falling in the scope.

00:16:45: So SMEs would be out of the scope and only the big ones will actually fall into the scope.

00:16:54: So it's based on the number of employees and then turnover.

00:17:00: So for example, for duty agents, The initial proposal was a thousand employees so companies above a thousand employees and above four hundred uh five million turnover would fall in the scope.

00:17:17: and now member states and parliament are looking into a threshold five thousand employee or three thousand employees and as a turnover threshold between one point five billion and four hundred fifty million.

00:17:33: so it's really a shift like you would really see the number of companies that have to comply with the legislation slamming them.

00:17:42: and when it comes to the requirements the initial legislation should have you should have looked into your full value chain but now it's only the tier one.

00:17:51: so the your direct impact and a lot of civil society are wondering what it will really drive as impact, because due to agencies identifying your risk, mitigating your risk at environmental level, but also social level.

00:18:10: What triggered the need for human rights due diligence law?

00:18:15: Yeah, it's actually come from the textile industry with the catastrophe.

00:18:22: of the Rana Plaza in Bangladesh where I don't know if everybody knows about it but a building collapsed and there have been thousands of deaths.

00:18:35: and it's really all those health and safety measures being able to open the safety doors etc.

00:18:44: were not actually in place.

00:18:47: so that's what triggered to ensure companies not in the production countries, were having an overview of the risk of where they were producing, but also having the responsibility to mitigate those risks, to really engage with the suppliers or the business partners, better said, on how to... Yes, we identified the risk, we need to mitigate so we have a better... situation once we worked on it.

00:19:22: So that was really the trigger.

00:19:24: It's one of the examples for our industry, but it was also triggered by other industries.

00:19:30: But this one is the one that is referred all the time as the why due diligence legislation is needed and can create a positive change and positive impact.

00:19:42: So Pascal, you mentioned two amendments that are currently in discussion.

00:19:46: first of all the the scope of companies that will need to adhere to this law and the second change that is in the sky or major change that is in discussion is the aspect of limited duty.

00:19:59: So for companies when it comes to human rights due diligence to focus solely on their first tier suppliers and to not look into the deeper value chain.

00:20:13: What effects do you see from that?

00:20:17: Are these laws becoming a teethless tiger or will they still be impactful?

00:20:24: And for our listeners, could you please walk us through how a value chain looks like and what the different tiers actually mean?

00:20:34: Yeah, fair point.

00:20:35: So let's say tier zero would be retail and distribution, like brands, retailers.

00:20:41: Tier one is the finished product assembly.

00:20:44: So cutting, sewing, you know, packaging, putting everything together.

00:20:48: Tier two is the material production.

00:20:50: So printing, tanning of your dyeing, like the dyeing process.

00:20:57: And then Tier three is the raw material processing.

00:21:00: So how you spin it, like the spinning and everything.

00:21:05: And Tier four is actually the raw material production.

00:21:09: So the farms.

00:21:11: but also if you use synthetics materials, that would be the extraction.

00:21:17: So that's really like how you could create that an overview of the different tiers.

00:21:24: So maybe for the first part of your question and your analysis, like the limitation of the companies falling in the scope, I think it's important to, yes, to keep in mind that there will be a repo effect still.

00:21:40: So the idea of the duty agents was also to ensure that if you have SMEs in the scope, you know, it's also their own suppliers, et cetera, will, you know, you will drive the change from a broader sense, not only those company in the scope, but actually impacting the others.

00:21:59: This is, I think, still going to be the same, but they won't have so that the big guys are still following in the scope, even if it's five thousand or three thousand employees, etc.

00:22:12: But if you think of, for example, big retailers, they will have to work with the tier one.

00:22:19: So if your brands that sell your products to that big retailer, they will ask you of the duty agents question.

00:22:28: So you have to prepare for it.

00:22:30: So you have to do it a bit, but you will not fall in the scope.

00:22:34: So that's what I call the ripple effect.

00:22:37: You still need to do it, but you're not in the legislation.

00:22:41: And when it comes to engagement with the suppliers, as you were mentioning in your remark and question, it will have maybe less impact because companies, Brands and retailers that are in Europe will not be responsible of the mitigation, the risk and the mitigation of those risks.

00:23:12: So that was the old point of the law and why civil society was fighting for it and the socialists, let's say.

00:23:23: because they were like, okay, stuff happened outside of the EU, you need to make sure that you're responsible and you understand what's going on.

00:23:30: And so that you actually changed your purchasing practices, you support your suppliers, that there is an actual positive change along the value chain.

00:23:40: And that's where I think the main impact will happen with this only tier one focus.

00:23:49: because you will not have this obligation to look beyond the tier one and to check what is happening.

00:23:57: So otherwise, we should have found a middle ground.

00:24:00: I understand that it's complicated maybe right away to go to tier four.

00:24:04: We do understand it takes some time to get there.

00:24:08: But you at least have that push to understand where you're going, where you're producing, where your material come from, and understanding what are the risks socially, but also from an environmental level for the people working in your supply

00:24:26: chain.

00:24:26: It absolutely makes sense from a management perspective.

00:24:28: We talked about it in the beginning.

00:24:30: So thinking of risk mitigation, thinking about... transparency purpose also related to communication at the end of the day, which brings us also to our next part, the empowering consumers for the green transition and the green claims directive.

00:24:52: I mean, for substantiating your claims, you also need to have this deeper knowledge of your supply chain, right?

00:25:01: Yeah, exactly.

00:25:03: And you will have to capture the data so that you can substantiate your claim, have your arguments, you know, create your business case behind the claim.

00:25:12: And that's what has been, you know, a civil society, but also citizens have been saying that this is greenwashing if you don't have the facts behind the claim.

00:25:23: And there's been a bit of a drama over several when it comes to green claims.

00:25:29: It was withdrawn and now we've seen the headline.

00:25:34: It's back again.

00:25:35: Yeah.

00:25:36: Yeah.

00:25:36: So maybe to set the scene for everyone, what is the Empowering Consumer Directive?

00:25:42: What is the Green Claims Directive?

00:25:44: As you were saying, Fabian, those two pieces of legislation look into the voluntary claim.

00:25:52: So as a business, what kind of marketing claim you want to make at company level, product level?

00:25:59: to look good and enhance your sustainability programs.

00:26:05: So that's what we call voluntary claims.

00:26:08: There will be some mandatory claims and mandatory information, but I can come back to that later.

00:26:15: So those two legislation, Empowering Consumer and Green Claims, go hand in hand.

00:26:22: Empowering Consumer creates the overall framework on what you can say cannot say at a high level and how you can put forward some information.

00:26:34: So it will start in September, and it will ban some wording or practices that are found to be unfair commercially.

00:26:47: So for example, you will not be able to use eco-friendly terms such as conscious, responsible, eco-friendly as such.

00:26:56: You also will not be able to use private label anymore, so you need to have to use frameworks that are approved by authorities or with labels that are specific and approved in the legislation, such as the EU eco-label, the one with the little flowers.

00:27:21: So that's really important.

00:27:23: So you're also the certification schemes that are existing need to follow some rules.

00:27:28: There are some governance rules being established in this piece of legislation.

00:27:33: And it looks at environmental aspects, social aspects, and animal welfare.

00:27:37: So it's quite broad.

00:27:39: Then you have another pillar, which is the green claim directive.

00:27:43: And it's where it's been a bit of a drama this year or a bit really unclear for companies.

00:27:49: when it comes to requirements and implementation.

00:27:51: So what policy makers wanted to do with the green claim directive was to complement the other piece of legislation that I mentioned that was giving the overall framework and the green claims directive.

00:28:04: The aim with this piece of legislation is really to go into the details on how to communicate any marketing claims around your product and environmental impact.

00:28:15: So really going into the mitigating putting requirements on verification before the claim was communicated to customer, the methodology used, and what kind of label you could use, et cetera.

00:28:33: So now it's really unclear where it's happening, because I don't know if the listeners know about it, but policymakers withdrew the proposal last minute just before summer.

00:28:45: and it's a bit in the limbo at the moment.

00:28:48: so we will know more now in Q. three, Q. four of this year if actually the green claims directive is going to be finalized because that there are some discussions.

00:29:00: but if it's really withdrawn from the legislation companies will still have to comply with the empowering consumer directive, so you still need to check your claims, you still need to do the work as I just explained.

00:29:17: And also for companies, you will need to monitor what is happening at national level.

00:29:23: The French Ecoscore does exist, so you will need to check.

00:29:26: if you sell in France, you need to check if actually your marketing claims, your labels on products comply with the French requirements.

00:29:36: And then you will need to monitor if, for example, in Germany or in Sweden or Italy, they are actually developing similar.

00:29:44: labels that would be mandatory on the market.

00:29:48: So it's not the end of the discussion.

00:29:51: It's very more monitoring what is happening at pure product legislation.

00:29:55: But my main really recommendation for companies representative listening right now is to comply with the empowering consumer because it's going to give you the baseline for or the rest of the communication and marketing pieces.

00:30:12: So don't overlook this piece.

00:30:14: So when we look at companies, whether they are retailers or brands in the outdoor industry, the goal is really to make sustainability accessible to customers and ultimately to integrate it into their purchasing decisions.

00:30:30: But if communicating these aspects now becomes too much of a burden, especially due to the need to verify every single detail, then there is, of course, also the risk of green hushing.

00:30:44: In that case, customers end up with little or no access to this important information.

00:30:51: Is this also what you're observing, Pascal?

00:30:55: It's a bit what we are seeing at the moment.

00:30:59: The green hushing trend is quite big for the bigger companies, those that have the capacity and resources, let's say, to be able to monitor what is happening.

00:31:15: You will see a lot of the big companies have removed their tag on their website to direct consumers to more sustainable choices.

00:31:26: It's quite complicated as a consumer to go to find the right options.

00:31:34: And then at the moment it's just facts.

00:31:37: It's like just saying this is, for example, back to the short example, it would be this is twenty-five percent, I'm inventing numbers, twenty-five percent recycled cotton or linen or whatever.

00:31:51: But it will not compare Apple to Apple at the moment because nobody is using the same methodology.

00:31:57: So yes, there is a tendency to green-hershing and hopefully it will move back to more communication once it's clarified, but it would take a bit of some time.

00:32:12: Important to note though, so it's not because at EU level, the green claims, let's say, it's on hold at national level, there are not some movements to ensure that the information is coming through to a customer.

00:32:29: So the friendship cause is happening, it was the... The idea is quite similar to the green claims.

00:32:36: And I wouldn't be surprised if, for example, the Nordics would come with some similar initiatives.

00:32:45: In Germany, you had the green button.

00:32:50: I cannot pronounce it in German

00:32:53: because I don't speak German.

00:32:55: Exactly, that's it.

00:32:56: So that is also possible to have that, but it's going to be a national level.

00:33:02: So more to come, but that environmental aspect or layer would take some time.

00:33:11: Which might make it also difficult for companies to fulfill the obligations of the different markets.

00:33:17: So if we have this fragmented landscape.

00:33:21: Exactly.

00:33:22: And it's additional costs, for example, from a logistic perspective, when you're in your warehouses, you're like, okay, which products goes to France?

00:33:31: Do we put the label, not the label?

00:33:34: This is, yes, this is additional costs because of the fragmentations, not only from limiting the sustainability aspects, so that you want to promote all the investments and innovation here have been... working on the past years, but it's also after report effect on your operation in the market.

00:33:59: So removing tags, adding tags, those kind of things.

00:34:01: It's really complicated in warehouses.

00:34:06: And you mentioned the French equal score.

00:34:11: How does it work in detail?

00:34:15: might it serve as a role model for other countries to adopt as well?

00:34:20: Yeah, France and I'm French.

00:34:22: France love to be at the forefront and push some ideas.

00:34:28: So they came with the Coscor to also because they could see Europe was lagging behind.

00:34:37: They also developed their own, let's say, PF methodology, which is not exactly the same as the European one.

00:34:45: And with the idea of being able to have the made-in information and the environmental impact being better communicated to consumers.

00:34:58: There is a bit of, so far it's voluntary, but with the idea of becoming mandatory.

00:35:06: So that's also something to monitor and to be ready for if you sell your products in France.

00:35:14: and have some brands and retailers in France already applied the French EcoScore.

00:35:19: And how is it perceived?

00:35:20: Are there experiences already with it?

00:35:24: Does it fulfill the idea that customers get good access to sustainability information, make it part of their purchasing decision?

00:35:37: So some companies have been testing it.

00:35:39: You could see in the Catalan, for example.

00:35:42: they had their own system that is quite similar to the French one obviously being French company.

00:35:48: They looked into what it was in the pipeline.

00:35:52: So it's driving change.

00:35:55: So there's still, it feels that there's still this gap to close for brands and retailers when it comes to communicating sustainability.

00:36:06: So if you solely base your communication on the what is legally asked for, then we might lose customers when it comes to integrating these aspects.

00:36:24: You might lose at the moment, but there are pieces of legislation in the pipeline.

00:36:30: What I was mentioning of voluntary claims, so that's empowering consumer and green claim directive.

00:36:38: And then there's the mandatory information that is coming up.

00:36:42: being cooked, let's say, in Brussels.

00:36:46: So that would go through eco design legislation.

00:36:49: So the eco design legislation doesn't only create the high level, the rules on, you know, what is a good product.

00:36:58: So percentages of recycled content, durability, etc.

00:37:02: But also it will have some mandatory information to be given to the customer.

00:37:08: And the textile laboring regulation is like those long tags that you have in your in your clothes.

00:37:16: It's also being reviewed and there is a full aspect around environmental aspects and sustainable environmental aspects.

00:37:24: The real society is asking for social aspects to be included.

00:37:28: That also is being cooked.

00:37:30: And all of this will be set via the digital product passport.

00:37:35: The digital product passport is the tool that will help traceability, so capturing the data along the value chain and distributing it to the different PCs of legislation.

00:37:50: So it's kind of like you would see it as a train coming from moving the information from one place to another and with different also targets.

00:38:05: That tool will capture data from suppliers, friends and retailers, but also recyclers, to be able to communicate to consumer, but also to push for circular economy under the co-design legislation, for example.

00:38:20: So, yeah, that will be the magic tool, hopefully.

00:38:23: And what will be, for example, this mandatory information that will be needed by companies to provide to end customers?

00:38:35: being cooked at the moment.

00:38:37: So even how technically a DPP works, and also a service provider, so you must have heard Trustrace and there are really great, but all the other providers, they will have to ensure that their services comply with DPP technical stuff, and the actual information being that we need to provide.

00:39:06: It's also under discussion and we will know more in twenty twenty six to be implemented.

00:39:12: So for companies to provide this information in twenty twenty seven twenty twenty eight.

00:39:18: So it's a long way.

00:39:19: We still as I was saying we are still cooking.

00:39:22: I cannot tell you exactly what it is because the at the moment we are more looking into what is a performance requirement.

00:39:34: What are the thresholds that you need to achieve?

00:39:38: Based on those thresholds, we will know what information you need to provide to authorities slash consumer.

00:39:45: So that's why it's in this sequence.

00:39:49: And also the textile labeling regulation and the review, we hopefully will see the legislative proposal at the end of this year.

00:39:59: So all of that is tied up into one big discussion.

00:40:05: I'm very excited to see how that will be translated to end customers.

00:40:10: I'm stressing this point so much as we are as a retailer so close to customers, of course, and really trying to provide valuable information that is substantiated.

00:40:24: And the big question I have is, are these technical information that needs to be somehow a translation?

00:40:33: for customers that are not into every bits and details.

00:40:39: Yeah, that's that's what we are hearing in discussions that the commission is rethinking of almost an ABCD label as we had for fridges and stuff.

00:40:51: So similar approach for

00:40:52: technical technical products or for houses and these kind of things.

00:40:57: Yeah,

00:40:58: exactly.

00:40:58: So that you're not as a consumer as you and I we go shopping.

00:41:03: not having the full backend, like the full details of information, but that layer, or like, is it better on this and this approach?

00:41:14: So that's really what they are aiming at, even for mandatory information.

00:41:18: Okay, this is

00:41:19: what they are aiming

00:41:20: for, to have that layer.

00:41:22: And for people then interested in more detail, then of course, they also might have access to the raw data if they want

00:41:31: to.

00:41:31: And I think it's also what civil society will want to make sure that the raw data or at least a level at least twice down can be achieved, accessible for scrutiny and for authorities.

00:41:50: So that if civil society have access to this, you and I as a customer can also have access to it.

00:41:57: That is definitely an objective, I think,

00:42:01: from a serious side.

00:42:02: Pascal, thanks so much for this very exciting conversation.

00:42:07: Sometimes EU policymaking feels like a black box and you have brought in some light and you're always a door opener when it comes to understanding EU policymaking.

00:42:23: Maybe some final words.

00:42:25: for this conversation, what is your hope and what is your motivation when it comes to EU Green Deal and looking into the future, how these different frameworks will be hopefully then implemented.

00:42:42: Yeah, it might have, like the conversation might have seemed to have been doomed and that we, you know, but I do believe we have the massive opportunity to continue the Green Deal.

00:42:56: This was the golden age, let's say, the last five years with the Green Deal force.

00:43:03: Everybody was aligned.

00:43:06: There was not the geopolitical tension that we have, but what that golden age of the past five years, it basically set the ground for all the work we can do now.

00:43:18: It's actually in the law.

00:43:20: It's the strategy.

00:43:21: It's not coming out.

00:43:22: So we... Actually, now can we push?

00:43:27: It's something that I would never ever thought of having such a green deal roadmap when I started working eighteen years ago.

00:43:38: Even in two thousand fifteen when I started in the text time strategy, it was really push.

00:43:44: for everybody to work towards a common legislation.

00:43:48: Now it's a no-brainer.

00:43:50: Yes, there is a need for legislation to drive sustainability.

00:43:54: It's a massive shift in the way to look into what we can do.

00:44:00: And yes, there are ups and downs, but if you're a sustainability believer, if you are a changemaker or a doer, you don't stop when there are a bit of challenges.

00:44:12: And roadblocks, actually, that's where innovation happens.

00:44:17: That's where you think of new way of doing public affairs, for example, from my job of pushing the momentum from a systemic standpoint.

00:44:26: And in Brussels, I do see forces being joined to actually continue the Green Deal.

00:44:34: There was a letter signed by more than two hundred companies to call for the duty agents to remain.

00:44:41: we would never have seen that before.

00:44:44: It's really great and also from a public affairs, pure, you know, like experts.

00:44:52: We are several companies like public affairs consultancy working just on sustainability, helping to change the narrative.

00:45:01: Ten years ago you didn't have that and we still, you know, standing and all those companies are thriving and continuing the work.

00:45:09: So yes, there is a bump, but it's not the end of the road.

00:45:14: Sustainability is not dead.

00:45:15: The green deal is not dead.

00:45:17: It's just a need to push through.

00:45:20: And I think as sustainability experts, we are used to that.

00:45:26: It's not short-term thinking, it's always long-term thinking.

00:45:29: So it's more looking at the northern star, the twenty fifty, and continuing our road, I would say.

00:45:37: So it's a bumpy road.

00:45:38: There are some obstacles and there's pressure on the green deal for sure.

00:45:43: But there is definitely hope and it is absolutely important to stay engaged.

00:45:52: And

00:45:53: Pascal, there are also new things on the horizon, right?

00:45:56: For instance, the nature credits.

00:46:00: Yeah.

00:46:01: No, definitely.

00:46:02: It's a bumpy road, but the horizon looks great.

00:46:06: So nature credits initiative was announced early July by the European Commission to look into a roadmap on how to create some nature credits as it was for carbon credits.

00:46:22: So they announced basically some different milestones between now and twenty twenty-eight to really create the artists engaged in and investing how a framework for nature credits could look like and to push for private investments into nature conservation projects.

00:46:46: So for example this year they will establish an expert group to be able to inform the commission.

00:46:53: So actually, organization can put forward the names, also individual experts, by September.

00:47:01: There is a consultation happening on nature credits.

00:47:04: So if anyone listening to our conversation wants to be part of it, there is a link, and it's open until the end of September.

00:47:14: But it's not the end of the conversation, obviously.

00:47:16: There will be other opportunities.

00:47:18: And then between now and twenty twenty six, twenty twenty seven, there would be an assessment of the market for nature credits.

00:47:28: And they will also develop governance certification frameworks.

00:47:32: So really creating that positive narrative and opportunities around nature credits with potentially legislation.

00:47:41: artists to look into legislation in twenty twenty eight.

00:47:44: so this is really a new thing that is exciting and that could also push biodiversity on the agenda because it hasn't been there really so far.

00:47:56: so that's really exciting.

00:47:58: and there are other things happening.

00:48:00: we are expecting some circularity initiatives, so looking into what could be the gaps to redrive circular economy in our industry, so for example grain VAT, pushing for fiber to fiber, when you look at a bigger picture there is the water resilience strategy, so much more is happening and it can be really exciting.

00:48:27: Also, if you are a progressive voice and you can really act in all those discussions.

00:48:34: So that's really great.

00:48:36: And we can really see also in the outdoor industry, progressive voices coming to Brussels and they were not there before.

00:48:43: So now I'm really hopeful and looking forward to that mandate to push the narrative and sustainability forward.

00:48:53: So if you're a purpose-driven brand or retailer, this is a call to action and we can share the link to the consultation process definitely in our show notes.

00:49:02: Thank you so much Pascal.

00:49:04: This was a very vivid and exciting conversation and I hope to speak to you next time around.

00:49:12: Thank you.

00:49:13: Definitely.

00:49:13: Thank you so much.

00:49:17: EU policy is highly dynamic.

00:49:19: More omnibus simplification packages are expected, intended to reduce administrative burden around sustainability-related regulation.

00:49:29: But with simplification comes the risk, of course, that important rules are watered down, that enforcement weakens just when we face ecosystems collapse, climate disruption, and rising societal pressure for change.

00:49:46: In all this uncertainty, delays, revisions, shifting priorities, it's worth asking.

00:49:53: What is our stance toward legislation?

00:49:57: Do we treat it as a burden?

00:49:59: Just more complexity to manage?

00:50:02: Or can we begin to see it as a necessary step toward a level playing field?

00:50:09: One that helps correct the blind spots of the liberal economy, especially in how we value nature and fairness in global supply chains.

00:50:19: What if we reframe it all together?

00:50:23: Legislation as a door opener, a catalyst for doing the right thing, a foundation for shared standards, long-term resilience and trust.

00:50:35: Yes, bureaucracy.

00:50:38: must not block progress, of course.

00:50:41: But edit its best.

00:50:43: It can enable business practice with purpose.

00:50:47: That's the spirit behind this episode.

00:50:50: So not just policy, for policy's sake, but tools to help build the future we all actually want.

00:50:59: Thank you for listening to New Horizons.

00:51:04: Coming up next, responsible sourcing in action.

00:51:08: In our next episode, we sit down with sustainability expert Marco Hün to talk about Deuter's bold decision to exit Myanmar as a production country and what it means to take real responsibility in complex global supply chains.

00:51:25: You can expect courageous insights on ethical sourcing, the challenges of leaving without leaving people behind, and why walking the talk in CSR sometimes means also making tough choices.

00:51:41: So don't miss out this deep dive into value-based decision-making in the auto industry.