EOCA - Nature positive with Dan Yates

00:00:09: you're putting inputs in and there can be a long delay until you monetize your output or you get your return on investment.

00:00:16: And a lot of that return on investment is diffuse.

00:00:19: But where outdoor has an advantage is that it can take an immediate impact when it comes to the kind of consumer facing or social benefit of making that investment.

00:00:33: So there's really good evidence around consumer reporting now that Brands that directly support biodiversity in nature through investing in NGOs, consumers prefer those brands.

00:00:44: And I think it's something like in Gen Z, across Germany, the next consumer report said over eighty percent of consumers from Gen Z will actively support brands by consuming from them that support biodiversity in nature through NGOs.

00:00:58: That's an output that is.

00:01:00: direct to you and you can get immediately.

00:01:03: The trees don't need to mature, the weapon doesn't need to settle in.

00:01:07: That's the benefit that you can receive from that investment immediately.

00:01:12: We just heard from Dan Yates, Executive Director of the European Outdoor Conservation Association, the Outdoors Industries Initiative funding real lasting impact for nature.

00:01:25: In this episode, we're going to discuss a topic that is as urgent as it is inspiring.

00:01:30: the business case for biodiversity and what it takes to become nature positive.

00:01:37: Nature is not a negotiating partner.

00:01:40: It is the foundation of our survival, our health and our economies.

00:01:45: Over half of global GDP depends directly on nature's resources and ecosystem services, yet we continue to degrade the very systems that sustain life.

00:01:59: of the nine planetary boundaries have already been breached.

00:02:04: Therefore, ecosystem degradation isn't just an environmental concern.

00:02:09: It's a profound risk for business and society as a whole.

00:02:14: It threatens supply chains and fuels economic instability.

00:02:18: It accelerates water scarcity, undermines food security, and many more.

00:02:24: At the same time, we are witnessing a growing disconnection from the natural world, a loss that is emotional and ultimately existential.

00:02:35: So today we are taking a closer look at what it truly means to become nature positive.

00:02:41: Why action for biodiversity can no longer wait and how the outdoor industry is uniquely positioned to lead.

00:02:49: I'm Fabio Nensa, your host of New Horizons, the podcast for everyone who loves the outdoors and wants to shape a more sustainable future for all.

00:02:59: Welcome!

00:03:00: Then Yates.

00:03:01: Brilliant.

00:03:01: Thank you for having me on.

00:03:03: Dan, how fantastic is the idea of a nature positive society?

00:03:08: How does that idea also resonate with you personally?

00:03:12: Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I've ended up sort of working connected to the outdoor industry entirely because of my love of nature and wild places being outside.

00:03:26: I was very lucky to grow up.

00:03:27: in like a coastal community and now I live in the mountains in a natural park and I feel connected to nature personally and I've brought my family up connected to nature and immersed in nature.

00:03:39: so I feel that it's obviously inherent to my sort of personal core, my purpose and the fact that in outdoor you get to work with other people with the same values is fantastic.

00:03:57: So it's not only the two of us that are working on this topic, but do you also feel that there's a whole community out there already working together to build this kind of future?

00:04:10: Yeah, I mean... The whole purpose of the ochre is to be able to connect the outdoor community, the brands that work within the outdoor community with those communities on the ground that are carrying out work to protect and conserve biodiversity in nature.

00:04:25: We work predominantly with grassroot communities, some larger NGOs, but mostly working at a local level that are putting effort into protecting wild places, protecting species, protecting biodiversity.

00:04:39: And there's an enormous number of people out there doing that.

00:04:42: Just in our last granting round, we have three hundred and forty applications from communities across the world doing that work.

00:04:50: So there's no shortage of community action out there.

00:04:55: Possibly where we fall down is the funding to support them all.

00:05:02: And it's so urgently needed.

00:05:04: So I mean, the decline, I said it in the beginning in the introduction already, the decline in global diversity is accelerating with ecosystems under increasing pressure.

00:05:16: Some figures show that if action to halt biodiversity loss is delayed by just ten years, the costs of recovery are projected to double while climate inaction could add five hundred billion dollar annually.

00:05:31: and damages.

00:05:32: so why is it now from your point of perspective such a crucial moment to talk about becoming nature positive and to increase the community and the funding towards conservation.

00:05:46: I mean I think it's always been crucial and they say that the best time to act was twenty years ago but the second best time to act is today.

00:05:54: But we're seeing now this kind of.

00:05:57: the tipping points overlapping between climate and biodiversity.

00:06:00: So we're at a situation now where in the last fifty years alone we've lost seventy three percent of species size of animals wildlife across the planet.

00:06:13: So that's three quarters of wildlife species size lost in my lifetime.

00:06:18: And if you look at freshwater ecosystems, that's eighty-five percent or eighty-three percent of species size.

00:06:24: So we're actually living almost through, you know, an extinction level event in terms of the rapid rapidity of that loss of species.

00:06:35: The other thing that we're noticing now is while the climate crisis is accelerating, we're seeing increased impact of extreme weather, of drought, of floods.

00:06:45: And we're noticing, and it's now well documented, that the most ecologically intact ecosystems are the most resilient to climate change.

00:06:55: So the most intact uplands or wetland systems are the most resistant to floods.

00:07:00: The most intact grassland systems, ecologically, are the most resistant to drought.

00:07:06: So we're now seeing that we're having this loss of biodiversity and it's it's compounding and accelerating the impacts of climate change.

00:07:14: So this is the point where both crises are coming together and we're feeling double impacts of that.

00:07:26: So the outer industry, the EOKA is focusing primarily, as I understand, on the outer industry.

00:07:32: Do you see that the outer industry can take its role model also for other industries?

00:07:40: Why is the outdoor industry such a role model or can lead the way?

00:07:47: I think the outdoor industry has an emotional connection to nature that maybe some other industries don't have and it can lean on that kind of connection to nature that it allows people to have.

00:08:02: If you imagine what a core purpose of an outdoor brand is, it is almost to give the equipment or the opportunity or the place for people to take time in nature and wild places.

00:08:13: So I think that gives it, it should therefore have a leading role in terms of action.

00:08:18: I think in terms of some cases, in terms of sustainability, for instance, phasing out of PFAS or forever chemicals that are impacting freshwater, the outdoor industry has taken a leading role in some of that and can be an exemplar.

00:08:34: And I think it would be great to see, and it is happening through EOCA as well, the outdoor industry taking a leading role in supporting communities that love these places to play their part in protecting them as well.

00:08:47: And to see that accelerated out and across broader industries with deeper pockets would be amazing as well.

00:08:58: Because this transition, I mean, it is not only technical and relies on instruments, right?

00:09:04: It's also, it requires some kind of cultural shift and reconnection to nature, right?

00:09:11: It does completely.

00:09:12: And I think nature is, when we talk about nature and connection to nature, I think the core of that is just understanding that we are part of nature.

00:09:23: I think that's the thing that is missing.

00:09:26: And I think with the work that has preceded the focus on biodiversity around climate.

00:09:32: It's much easier to see carbon and action on climate as a kind of a maths puzzle, as a numbers game.

00:09:41: It's a technical solution.

00:09:42: We emit less carbon, or we find ways to sequester carbon, and it's kind of almost balancing on a spreadsheet in terms of how we do that.

00:09:51: But when we look at how we interact with nature, that's it.

00:09:56: kind of a holistic change.

00:09:58: We need to understand our place in nature, how we travel through nature, the impact that we have on nature through our daily actions, the impact our businesses have on nature, and our ability to support nature's recovery as well.

00:10:10: So it's a much more kind of a cross-cultural action that is needed.

00:10:19: You've been thinking and speaking a lot about what it means to become nature positive, maybe at the beginning of our conversation.

00:10:26: now just to clarify a little bit the scope.

00:10:31: How does a truly nature positive future look like for people, for business and for the planet?

00:10:38: And what natural systems are all included?

00:10:43: I think that's like there's a lot of.

00:10:46: there's a lot of parts to that question.

00:10:48: So to be nature positive is, I mean, essentially, to put nature and nature's protection and recovery at the heart of all of your thinking.

00:11:00: i think in terms of all of your it's we hear that sort of put nature on the board as a quote sometimes every business decision you make whether that is to do with your production your consumption the end use case of your product needs to have its impact on nature.

00:11:19: Considered i think whether that is positive or negative or or or neutral.

00:11:24: and i think then understanding how you can use.

00:11:27: Your community that you build that's a business community user community the community where you're based.

00:11:34: in terms of supporting nature positive actions.

00:11:38: there i think there's a difference between.

00:11:42: Being nature positive in the way that you would talk about being like carbon positive or carbon neutral where we where we really talk about like Carbon is that kind of?

00:11:53: do we emit you know?

00:11:55: Less carbon than we sequester and that makes us you know carbon carbon positive.

00:11:59: But with nature it's much more difficult to create that balance.

00:12:04: and I I feel that in order You don't need to be perfect in terms of your supply chain and your impact on biodiversity to start taking what we would call nature positive actions.

00:12:15: So you can act positively on nature immediately, even if you haven't got those sort of technical parts of your production and supply chain minimized.

00:12:25: And I think it's important that you take those nature positive actions from day one.

00:12:31: from step one, whether that is in investing through NGOs that are doing work on the ground, whether that is helping connect your community to nature.

00:12:41: I think those actions can happen immediately before you start, before you've finished your sustainability journey.

00:12:51: that is important as well.

00:12:52: So I think that's that kind of separating being nature positive and taking nature positive.

00:12:59: actions, you know, like it's very difficult to understand and there's a lot of work being done into the accounting procedure of how you could call yourself or become nature positive overall because we have huge problems with biodiversity is not.

00:13:18: aggregatable, like carbon is, you know, impact on biodiversity in one place, caused by your supply chain is not mitigated by you taking a nature of positive action or doing a conservation project in another area.

00:13:32: So it's very difficult to say that overall you come out correct on the balance sheet, but it's important that you're taking those actions to take those nature of positive actions and kind of.

00:13:48: Take that maybe even before you've got the songs worked out completely.

00:13:52: I hope that makes sense.

00:13:53: It's kind of a complicated concept to explain, I think.

00:13:58: I think what you say is it needs to work parallel, right?

00:14:03: We can't wait for all measurements to be completed and then act afterwards, but we're running out of time, so we need to act now while also improving instruments to measure impact and so forth, right?

00:14:17: Yeah, exactly.

00:14:18: And I think when we look at legislation that's coming in or consultations that are coming in around legislation in terms of trying to create a balance sheet that works with that, whether that's the nature credits proposal at the EU, that seems to be a long way off still because the accountancy problem is difficult.

00:14:41: In terms of the consultations that have happened so far, there's been no real, there was a consultation run in September.

00:14:47: There's been no real kind of consensus of opinion of the best way forwards with this.

00:14:53: In the UK, there is a kind of a policy point called biodiversity net gain that works with businesses entirely around development.

00:15:04: So if you build in one area, how do you ensure your development is a net gain?

00:15:09: to biodiversity, and that can be either within the same area or in a different area.

00:15:16: And we're seeing huge issues with that system coming under pressure, not working for developers, not working for nature, not working for the NGOs, not working for the government and growth.

00:15:28: And there's a big kind of procedure through the houses of parliament at the moment, looking at amendments to that system now.

00:15:35: So where systems where all that is worked out seem a long way off and where they have been put in place, they don't seem to be terribly effective at the moment.

00:15:45: So I think it's really down to businesses to take the actions that align with their values and purpose immediately and not be waiting for a legislative push to do this.

00:15:58: So that means much more effective for now is getting active.

00:16:04: And putting, as you said, nature at the heart of business decisions, would you say that planet centricity then is a prerequisite in order to move towards nature positive?

00:16:17: Yeah, completely.

00:16:22: I think having that kind of nature first or planet first view, and including people within that as well, I mean, it's really important to remember that people are part of nature too.

00:16:33: is is is critical to four.

00:16:38: It may be it's difficult to say that's critical for individual business survival, but a predominant number of businesses doing that is is critical for whole business survival.

00:16:47: I think that's that's that's.

00:16:49: you could probably have some bad eggs that survive on the good work of others, I guess.

00:16:55: But I think, you know, the overwhelming sort of nature of business needs to move to a more positive, more positive for the planet and people.

00:17:06: Do you see barriers that prevent businesses in the current system we are in to put planet at the heart of business decisions and to move towards this planet centricity?

00:17:22: I think we see disincentivisation from a legislative.

00:17:30: point of view.

00:17:31: We see this in the UK and in the EU level where uncertainty around possible legislation to control this is out there.

00:17:41: So people are scared about investing too much in one tract, thinking that it might change.

00:17:47: Whereas, you know, if you knew there was going to be no legislation, you could go your own way and do your own thing.

00:17:52: Or if you knew that legislation was going to be, yes, it will definitely be in this direction, you could invest in that.

00:17:57: But this, the uncertainty doesn't do business any good.

00:18:00: in terms of understanding how to invest.

00:18:04: And then I feel there is also when it comes to the deregulation or simplification push.

00:18:12: that's happening in the EU at the moment with the omnibus packages, what we're looking at is businesses seeing an unfair marketplace or market advantage given to companies that maybe aren't investing or companies that are investing in nature being placed at a market disadvantage.

00:18:31: And I think that that's the other thing.

00:18:34: It's not necessarily that you, I think we need environmental legislation there to enable a level playing field for people to do this.

00:18:43: And that's, I think the uncertainty and the lack of rigor in environmental legislation is a blocker to action at the level that it needs to be.

00:18:55: Do they need to be taken

00:18:58: out?

00:18:58: There's also this common investment problem.

00:19:02: You already described it.

00:19:05: Companies that invest in public goods such as water, quality, biodiversity or clean air, they create value for everyone.

00:19:15: But the benefits, they do not return directly or exclusively to them.

00:19:22: Yes, so your impact?

00:19:25: your inputs are discrete and your outputs are diffuse.

00:19:29: And that's the problem, isn't it?

00:19:31: So your output is spread across society and your input comes directly from your pocket.

00:19:38: So I think that is tricky.

00:19:41: I mean, I would like to think, I mean, that's the way that societies work.

00:19:47: So it would be nice if people were sort of willing to do that.

00:19:50: And the more people that get on board with that, the less of an issue that is.

00:19:55: I think it's also outdoor has quite a unique ability to get some direct benefits as well.

00:20:04: If you imagine your inputs, you can stack your inputs and then work out where you get your outputs.

00:20:11: We hear a lot about investing at nature at scale or investing in nature to prevent flooding or investing in nature to increase biodiversity or investing in nature to increase carbon sequestration.

00:20:25: And there's two things that happen.

00:20:27: When you make that investment, often that's coming from your sustainability budget or your sort of impact budget, if you would.

00:20:36: And then those outputs, they're diffuse, first of all, across society, so they don't come directly back to you.

00:20:43: But also, most of those outputs, even where you are able to, for instance, with biodiversity net gain in the UK, sell a credit.

00:20:53: to a developer or something like that.

00:20:55: That payback often comes a long time down the line.

00:21:00: It could be decades down the line before carbon sequestration is lined up.

00:21:05: So you're putting inputs in and there can be a long delay until you monetize your output or you get your return on investment.

00:21:13: And a lot of that return on investment is diffuse.

00:21:16: But where outdoor has an advantage is is that it can take an immediate impact when it comes to the kind of consumer-facing or social benefit of making that investment.

00:21:32: So there's really good evidence around consumer reporting now that brands that directly support biodiversity in nature through investing in NGOs, consumers prefer those brands.

00:21:43: And I think it's something like in Gen Z, Across Germany, the next consumer report said over eighty percent of consumers from Gen Z will actively support brands by consuming from them that support biodiversity in nature through NGOs.

00:21:59: That's an output that is direct to you and you can get immediately.

00:22:04: The trees don't need to mature.

00:22:06: The weapon doesn't need to settle in.

00:22:08: That's a benefit that you can receive from that investment immediately.

00:22:13: And that's an investment that you can make from a different part of the budget within your company as well.

00:22:19: So that could be marketing budget or partnership budget can come to that.

00:22:25: So you can stack your inputs from different budgets within your company, and then you can receive the outputs.

00:22:33: You can get sort of stacked outputs at different times and targeted in different ways as well.

00:22:40: outdoor particularly could really benefit from the consumer benefit that investment in nature brings.

00:22:50: So what I hear is that we discussed that in the beginning, the outdoor industry can have a role model in this because the business case for biodiversity is then much more given than for other industries as well.

00:23:06: I think it's... Possibly because I'm within outdoor, I see it more directly.

00:23:14: I'm not aware of the research for, I don't know, furniture companies that invest in nature.

00:23:19: And what their consumer benefit is from that.

00:23:22: But I think we do see, I think this is a benefit that would go across all industry, but it's just much more direct.

00:23:29: And the stories are easier to tell for outdoor.

00:23:33: First of all, because Outdoor is really good at storytelling.

00:23:37: It's what it's always done.

00:23:40: Outdoor marketing has always been about telling stories.

00:23:44: That's what it's always been, whether it's people climbing a mountain that could equal be about people who protect it as well.

00:23:50: So outdoor is very good at telling those stories.

00:23:52: And those stories are much more direct, and we tend to take our consumers to the places that we talk about as well.

00:23:59: We're enabling our consumers to get out and experience nature firsthand.

00:24:03: And that makes that storytelling a little bit easier too.

00:24:07: Hence, there is a more direct return on investment for outdoor brands.

00:24:12: Given.

00:24:15: what I wondered then though is if we really want to get to nature positive at scale, do we then not necessarily also need it a transformation of the broader economic system?

00:24:33: I think completely.

00:24:38: I think we're probably the largest investment in nature on behalf of outdoor industries.

00:24:48: There's lots of other industries that invest in campaigning and advocacy and things, but in terms of projects on the ground.

00:24:57: But we're doing small-scale community-led projects.

00:25:01: We tend to fund ten or so small projects a year as opposed to one huge one because we want to have that impact through grassroots communities.

00:25:10: When you're talking about investing in landscape at scale, that's very difficult to do without significantly more investment.

00:25:20: There's a lot of discussion around how you make that financially viable.

00:25:25: in terms of the investors in nature?

00:25:26: What is their security of investment or return on investment?

00:25:30: And there's huge discussions with that with large companies like insurance companies investing in nature because they understand that it reduces.

00:25:40: their risk and exposure to extreme weather events, for instance, if they're investing in nature, biodiversity, carbon sequestration, or upland flood prevention.

00:25:51: It's very easy to see that an insurance company that has properties that are insured downstream of a flood prone area, it's worth them investing in upland management and river re-meandering natural flood management schemes because it reduces their insurance payments out.

00:26:09: in terms of that.

00:26:10: There's a whole system that needs to be in place to make that work.

00:26:15: There needs to be insurance again on the investments that you make.

00:26:19: If you invest in replanting a forest for carbon sequestration or biodiversity and there is a forest fire and it burns down, who ensures that investment or who ensures the credit that you do?

00:26:31: And those financial markets are really complicated that deal at these broad scale.

00:26:38: nature rewilding projects.

00:26:42: It's very difficult to do those in a way that doesn't impinge on the rights of the communities or Indigenous people that will live within those areas as well.

00:26:52: If you're making large-scale financial decisions about areas of land where other people live, that's like a really difficult thing to do as well.

00:27:01: I guess that whole kind of how we change nature to be a viable financial investment is, A, financially difficult, and B, leaves quite a bad taste in my mouth that we feel that we need to financially kind of, that there needs to be this sort of that everything that everything has to have a monetary value to make it worth saving.

00:27:33: And I understand that that is the case.

00:27:34: And that is the system that we work within.

00:27:37: But it also I also find that quite a difficult concept to to be a part of.

00:27:45: Absolutely, because we all know it's the right thing to do.

00:27:48: And we feel that it is rather a five past twelve, then five to twelve already.

00:27:54: So Even more reason that we can't wait on the legislative framework or other aspects, but we need to act and companies within the auto industry, they do their part already.

00:28:12: Even though I think, and you described in the beginning, there could be even more funding because there are a lot of projects out there that need funding in this direction.

00:28:25: Very practically, how can companies then invest in rewilding and ecosystem recovery in a way that's pragmatic and impactful and not just symbolic?

00:28:38: And I think this is sort of trying to understand what you want to get out of it, I think is the key sort of thing.

00:28:48: We all have different risk factors.

00:28:51: to nature that we're trying to mitigate against?

00:28:55: Are you after reducing your risk to your supply chain and the impacts that you have there?

00:29:01: Are you after reducing your transitional risks, your risks of consumers losing faith in you or losing the places that they go to use your product and understanding where that is?

00:29:15: Then I think it's finding a partner that you can work with on the ground to make that happen.

00:29:22: It's very, very difficult to ensure that a project that you're investing in is a kind of effective, cost-effective, that it doesn't have any unwanted negative impacts.

00:29:39: That's all quite difficult.

00:29:40: At IOCRA, all of our projects have to tick like a certain number of boxes.

00:29:45: First of all, they need to have an impact on threatened species, habitat, or wild place.

00:29:52: That needs to tackle the root cause of the threat to that place.

00:29:58: The projects, the second column of our projects, they all have to help reconnect people with nature.

00:30:02: And that might be tourists or outdoor lovers visiting the area, or it might be reconnecting the local community with nature.

00:30:10: And thirdly, they all have to use a rice-based approach.

00:30:12: So all of our projects have to ensure that all the decision-making is made in such a way that it respects the rights of Indigenous peoples, local communities, and that there are no, the impacts and benefits are shared equally with no extra impact placed on people of a specific community, race, gender, social and economic group, you know, and I think that's, it's really difficult to manage a project that's like that.

00:30:41: We have a conservation officer that works with us or two conservation experts that work with us to make sure all our projects meet the kind of due diligence criteria.

00:30:52: And then we have a scientific advisory board as well that's made up of academics.

00:30:56: We have an academic that is a specialist in marine ecosystems, an academic that is a specialist in indigenous peoples.

00:31:03: We have an academic that's a specialist in forestry to sort of then do the final checkover of all our projects.

00:31:10: It's finding a partner that has the expertise within.

00:31:14: IOCRA is one.

00:31:15: There are other great NGOs that do really amazing work as well, that you can also partner with to do this.

00:31:21: But trying to manage it within your own company is very difficult, I think, with the resources that you have, because it's always a lot more work than you think it is.

00:31:31: So find a partner that's working in the areas that you want to work within.

00:31:36: You know, decide what areas you want to work with and find a partner that does that and has expertise and specialty within that.

00:31:42: And then invest in that partner in terms of financial so they can do the projects.

00:31:47: But then also take the time to tell the stories of what that partner is doing.

00:31:52: not just so you get your kind of marketing ROI, but we also need to tell the stories of these communities that are working to save these places because it helps them from a political point of view.

00:32:03: It encourages other businesses to take part and take action and grow the funding that is available.

00:32:09: And it helps change the narrative across the broader population about the importance of these places and the importance of nature as well.

00:32:15: So yeah, find a partner, invest money, and then invest time in telling the stories as well.

00:32:21: I think that's the best way to do it.

00:32:24: Obviously, IOCRA is here to help, but there are other partners that do great work in different project areas as well.

00:32:32: Got it.

00:32:33: What recommendations then can you give for companies that also parallel want and need to minimize negative impact in their core business?

00:32:42: What instruments are out there and what advice can you give?

00:32:49: As I say, when it comes to There's been a lot of talk around carbon and how a lot of the statistics and accounting is really in place for that and how that isn't quite so clear with biodiversity at the moment.

00:33:05: To be clear, we're not a sustainability expert company.

00:33:09: I would turn to the EOG or someone to the European Outdoor Group to do that work.

00:33:15: We're looking at in terms of understanding how to measure your impact.

00:33:21: And doing that in a way where you can also understand your nature-positive outputs as well, there's various different sort of schemes coming up.

00:33:30: And the one that we're leaning into at IOKA is Task Force for Nature Disclosure.

00:33:35: We think that's probably the most thorough and comprehensive kind of reporting scheme that is still pragmatic and usable.

00:33:48: if you know what I mean.

00:33:49: And you can use that to report your nature impacts, your risks, but also the impacts of the nature positive projects that you do as well.

00:33:57: So you can kind of score across all criteria.

00:34:03: We haven't been using that at IOCI yet.

00:34:05: We'll be presenting our first projects that complete this year with Task Force for Nature Disclosure Reporting attached to them now.

00:34:16: Most of our projects run for about three years.

00:34:18: So we'll have a few projects this year, more at the end of next year.

00:34:22: And then in three years time, all of our projects should be using task force for nature disclosure reporting criteria.

00:34:31: However, there is, you know, about a hundred and seven different ones, you know, GRI, there's all these different sort of criteria as well.

00:34:38: But I feel that looking at task force for nature disclosure, if you're really serious about, about measuring impact.

00:34:47: both positive and negative, that would be the one I would take a look at if I was sort of a sustainability director now.

00:34:54: So, but let's maybe go back to the point then, which you also described, there needs to be also a shift from thinking in unit to thinking in ecosystems.

00:35:08: Maybe we can elaborate on this aspect once more, because I think that's really important.

00:35:17: aspect to have to keep in mind in this conversation.

00:35:21: Yeah, I think it's really important to understand that individual aspects of nature and biodiversity are all interlinked.

00:35:30: There's no kind of focusing on single species, for instance, doesn't work.

00:35:39: I've been involved in larger kind of rewilding and conservation projects.

00:35:44: Before I moved to Iocca, when this was happening, you know, ten years ago, there was a lot of naivety around this, and there was local authorities on National Park authorities going, well, we'll run this project because we need to increase the number of curl use, which is like a rare bird species.

00:36:04: And if you focus specifically on like an output of one species type, you can then ignore the complexity of the whole ecosystem, and ignore the fact that we're in a period of changing weather, changing rainfall patterns, changing temperature, changing climate, and that the previous number of curlews that you had per hectare in this area before might not be the number of curlews that are super healthy natural ecosystem.

00:36:36: can support there in twenty thirty because we have a different climate and, you know, different usage pattern.

00:36:41: So it's much more thinking about natural processes and natural process.

00:36:47: I think when you think species specific, whether that's a plant or, you know, often it's keystone species, you know, how many orangutans there are or how many pandas there are or how many tigers there are.

00:36:59: I think that that can give you a little bit of tunnel vision as opposed to thinking about whole ecosystem.

00:37:06: services.

00:37:07: And you can end up in a situation where quite traditional conservation is almost thought of as gardening.

00:37:15: I want my garden to look this way with this many roses over here and this many shrubs over here.

00:37:20: Whereas what you actually want to do is set up the ecosystem so it can then take care of itself.

00:37:26: So that natural processes run and operate that system autonomously.

00:37:31: if all human input was withdrawn.

00:37:33: And that is the kind of rewilding That goes from conservation to rewilding, I think, and that is about letting rivers meander within their banks, letting forests spread naturally up to the mountain sides to the level they've ever spread.

00:37:49: And I don't think you can draw lines on that because we see now with glacier retreat and with increasing temperature in the Alps, for instance, areas will become forested that were not forested before.

00:38:01: And I think that we need to let that happen because that's a natural process in a natural area.

00:38:07: So it's thinking about nature as these holistic, fully integrated systems, as opposed to targeting specific... I think you see it with biodiversity net gain.

00:38:22: The reason I use that as an example is it's one of the only implemented examples in the UK.

00:38:27: i will buy this many hedgerow credits and this many kind of blue-tip credits and this many like wildflower credits and actually what you want is a broader understanding of the place that you're impacting.

00:38:40: You want a whole flourishing ecosystem that is winning all at once.

00:38:46: Yeah, and and also including people within it as well whether that is visitors to it or all the community that is already present there, you know And I think remembering whenever we do this that people is part.

00:38:59: people are part of that ecosystem as well.

00:39:02: and is that Social aspect also part of the task for a nature related financial disclosure you described?

00:39:12: Yeah, I mean there are rights-based approaches and kind of that sort of thing is integrated within that.

00:39:22: We don't kind of look at that sort of reporting cycle because it doesn't impact our projects hugely, if you know what I mean.

00:39:29: But the sort of role of people within it is really important to look at from not just in terms of your reporting, but from step one, from the very beginning, like when you start to think about how you're going to interact with a place.

00:39:45: When you look at the the sort of the reason that we're in a nature and biodiversity crisis.

00:39:53: That was the last report, the last IPBES report into planetary ecosystem, biodiversity, whatever it's, it's, it's, it's a longer anachronism.

00:40:05: That basically the sum up of that was the leading cause of the biodiversity and nature crisis is disconnection of people from nature, domination over nature and other people.

00:40:15: the inequitable concentration of power and wealth and the prioritizations of short-term and material gains, that's the cause of the biodiversity and nature crisis.

00:40:24: And in fact, when you boil that kind of statement down, that's kind of the cause of all the crises that we're facing, whether that is war or inequality or was a scarity or all the health crisis.

00:40:37: So I think that understanding that people are a core part of that is critical.

00:40:46: and addressing really these root courses, because otherwise we don't get towards scaling the direction towards nature positive.

00:40:56: I mean, there will be initiatives here and there, but really to reach that ultimate goal, these aspects need to be addressed.

00:41:06: Yeah, completely, because they're the sort of... I think that's the... the blocker of reaching the core targets that we need in terms of climate targets or in terms of an area of land protected.

00:41:24: Thirty percent of land protected by twenty to thirty, which is what we're going to reach in Europe.

00:41:31: We're a long way from doing that and the land that is protected is not adequately protected within that place as well.

00:41:39: If we're going to reach these ambitious targets that are required, we need to look at all of the kind of things that are blocking that game there.

00:41:52: Also, that needs to take place in this holistic approach.

00:42:01: Some might be short gains and some might take more time, but everything is all these different instruments or approaches are needed to move in this direction.

00:42:14: Yeah.

00:42:15: And to do the sort of reducing impact sustainability approach, as we've said before, in parallel and at the same time as the nature positive actions that you will take as well.

00:42:27: And I think that that's really important.

00:42:29: And not to confuse the two.

00:42:32: Sustainability is not.

00:42:35: a nature positive action, it's doing less harm, you know, understanding where you're having a positive impact as well immediately, I think is, and taking those actions in tandem and holding as much importance to them within your company as you take sustainability.

00:42:51: And that's not to say, take budget away from sustainability or do less of that.

00:42:55: That's to say, they need to be of equal importance from day one, like all the way.

00:43:01: all the way down.

00:43:02: You need to understand that both of those things need to happen at the same time.

00:43:09: When we talk about outdoor, that can be everything.

00:43:11: That can be investing in nature and rewilding projects, but it can also be about understanding the way when we talk about connecting people with nature, and it's also kind of promoting a less exploitative way of our community experiencing nature.

00:43:31: as well.

00:43:33: Understanding that yes, these sort of core goal-orientated outdoor adventures, journeys, climbing the highest mountain in Peru or the Himalayas or skiing a massive line in Alaska, those are hugely important goals and they tell fantastic stories.

00:43:58: But also understanding that There is a way of experiencing nature that is kind of less consumptive or less dominating than that.

00:44:09: And often that is where the majority of our community find their greatest sort of enjoyment.

00:44:15: And that could be a walk in your local wood or a paddle down your local river or a trip to your local nature reserve or park.

00:44:25: and understanding that.

00:44:27: As well as those kind of pinnacle goals, we also need to promote the sort of quieter, less exploitative, less consumptive way of enjoying nature as well.

00:44:39: And often in my background, I've been really lucky to do a lot of big expeditions abroad in the Himalayas, in South America, in Africa, but the place where I feel happiest and I have the biggest sense of belonging and connection.

00:44:54: is in my local area, in the place where I live, in the river that I spend time in or the woods that I spend time in in my house.

00:45:02: And those experiences are every bit as important to me as the big ticket ones as well.

00:45:08: And I feel outdoor can do a lot more storytelling around that aspect of outdoor enjoyment.

00:45:15: So also, communication-wise, what stories we tell then needs to be also or should be this local connection to nature and micro-adventures in your local community and in your local nature.

00:45:32: Yeah, or even, you know, understanding that you can, even within your local area, we have, like, living in a national park, we have real problems with, like, honeypots, we call them, where everybody flocks to one place to get their picture on.

00:45:47: They all drive down the same road, park in the same car park, get their picture on Instagram.

00:45:51: you know with the same mountain behind them and and that's a very kind of like target consumptive led way of of enjoying nature and I feel that this that's great and it's people should be allowed to do that.

00:46:05: but also the needs of your promotion of the sort of more connected side to the enjoyment too.

00:46:11: so that's about how we and I believe when you when you sort of connect with nature in that way you and form that sense of belonging with place then you understand the need to protect it, to invest time and money in conserving it, to vote for a party in your local government that will protect that place, have a positive attitude towards that, and consume from brands that also have a positive attitude towards that.

00:46:42: I believe that outdoor brands can do a lot towards that connection and connecting people with nature in a way that... Possibly that i always focus on that story.

00:46:53: Once again looking at the funding or where you put your where you put your money and your effort is there.

00:47:03: is there a formula you can give to two companies or brands?

00:47:07: how much money should they.

00:47:09: invest in minimizing negative impacts in the core business.

00:47:13: How much money should they spend in conservation projects?

00:47:17: or maybe also how much resources should they put in lobbying or advocacy?

00:47:24: Is there a formula to this?

00:47:25: or is this very individual then?

00:47:28: I think this is very individual and you could create a figure by doing a very accurate risk mapping of your business.

00:47:37: Where is my?

00:47:38: where are my impacts?

00:47:40: you know.

00:47:40: but also where are my risk factors?

00:47:42: and as I say when it comes to like my your impact sustainability that's not really a rocket.

00:47:47: your role like you know we're not experts there but your risk factors is what we do.

00:47:51: look out a lot.

00:47:52: so like where is your supply chain at risk of.

00:47:56: A loss of soil like i do you have a large amount of cotton in your supply chain you know or or marina like you know you taking marina from new zealand and what are the soil impacts that you're looking at?

00:48:07: their food climate or biodiversity loss?

00:48:09: what is your.

00:48:11: impact on where your consumers are using their product.

00:48:15: There are increasing issues in the Dolomites and the Alps with lack of fresh water in hiking areas now, like in terms of multi-day hiking and stuff.

00:48:25: Where are the impacts that your consumer group is seeing there?

00:48:28: What is your consumer's opinion in terms of what you should be doing as well?

00:48:31: And what is coming down the line from a legislation point of view that might impact you?

00:48:37: And that doesn't necessarily mean sustainability legislation.

00:48:42: with increased nature scarcity and increased impact on biodiversity, you will see legislation put in place that will limit your user group's ability to access nature.

00:48:55: That will happen directly.

00:48:56: We already see that and for very good reasons.

00:49:00: Some of the lakes, if you hike Mount Triblav in Slovenia, some of the lakes now have restrictions on swimming in those lakes, and we see that in the Dolomites as well.

00:49:07: So people aren't getting to enjoy nature in the way they would like to because it is more threatened.

00:49:13: So these are all risk factors, and then you can work out what they are, and then you can output to how much you need to invest in X, Y, and Z to do that.

00:49:25: I would say, Investment in nature is probably, if you then use it to sort of mitigate those risks and tell the story about it, I think that it's one of the cheaper things that you'll do in terms of return on investment as a brand.

00:49:45: We see that.

00:49:46: There's no sort of, I don't know what the data is this around outdoor, but we see this from government spending in different governments.

00:49:55: if they spend like one euro, one.

00:49:58: Restoration they get sort of.

00:49:59: on nature.

00:49:59: restoration they get four euros back or ten euros back on and I think there is.

00:50:03: it is it.

00:50:05: It's.

00:50:06: it's difficult to sort of do the formula.

00:50:07: It depends on what your impact is what your user group is where you use it, but I think it's the.

00:50:15: the spending on nature nature positive Aspects is always overlooked in comparison to spending on sustainability.

00:50:22: I think I would say But I'm gonna be biased because I sit on on that side of it.

00:50:28: But I would say that that's always an underspend on that aspect.

00:50:36: Often thought of as a nice to have, and not a must-have part of your business package.

00:50:44: I think businesses are now seeing sustainability as must-have, but nature positive is still kind of a nice to have, and I think it needs to become an essential.

00:50:55: Absolutely.

00:50:56: And how do we onboard now?

00:50:58: those brands that are lacking behind?

00:51:07: I think partly this is where the advocacy bit comes in that you talked about.

00:51:13: Let's advocate for legislation that ensures these brands start to take action.

00:51:20: I think that to level the playing field so that there is legislation in place to support the business model of, or not to place at a disadvantage, the business model of brands that are doing the right thing.

00:51:34: I think it's the storytelling part as well, like giving space to the stories of the communities that are taking action.

00:51:42: And the brands that tell that will see, consumers will be like, well, why isn't the brand that I buy my jacket from or my tent from taking these actions as well?

00:51:53: And I think that that will that will raising the public profile of the importance of this through your community will drag other brands along to take part.

00:52:06: I think that's really important as well.

00:52:10: I guess at the end of the day, what we're always talking about here is brands or businesses making those investments and kind of getting other businesses to take part.

00:52:23: I guess we also need to think about when we talk about the advocacy part as well, governments, whether that is at EU level or national government level, playing their part as well, not in terms of not just in terms of legislation, but in terms of direct investment too.

00:52:42: I think that's critically important.

00:52:45: We talk about how... When you put your input in as a business, that's like a discrete input and the benefits are diffused across society and across nature.

00:52:58: Essentially, that's what a taxation system is for.

00:53:00: I would really like to see investment by government and whether that is EU-wide or whether it's at national government level and investing in these places which would really enable large scale.

00:53:15: systemic change across landscape scales instead of small pockets, which is what we're able to do.

00:53:22: Having the political will as a company with a following to speak up for the political party is important too.

00:53:33: To all brands that are listening in, it's time to get going.

00:53:37: a lot of brands in the outdoor industry, they are already part of IOKA, or they also have their own programs and investing.

00:53:47: But to those brands that are maybe a little bit resistant or overwhelmed, Dan and his team are here to help and to support and get you going in this direction.

00:54:04: Yeah, we cover the whole range of of choices that you might want to do in terms of what your business kind of purposes or where your interest of your consumers lies.

00:54:16: I mean, even this year, we have granted probably thirteen or fourteen projects this year.

00:54:23: IOCRA has funded.

00:54:25: Some from our core fund and some from a summit fund.

00:54:28: The summit fund is when one brand specifically invests in a single project.

00:54:34: And then our core fund is when we pool the money and we grant bigger projects.

00:54:37: And our bigger projects have been everything from protecting golden eagles in Croatia to sea turtles in Indonesia to invasive species of trees being removed from woodland areas in South Africa to reforestation in northern UK.

00:54:59: And we've done projects specific with brands, everything from cleaning plastic pollution from a micro climate area on the mountainside where there are small, rare alpine plants growing to purchasing Swedish forests to protect it to restoring wetlands in Germany.

00:55:20: you know, like the whole gamut of environmental projects are being done by Yocca.

00:55:24: And at the same time, we're advocating for that legislative change that we need as well.

00:55:32: It's, it's like, I mean, this will be different when it goes out.

00:55:35: But next week, we're traveling to Brussels with two different brands to talk about the importance of maintaining strict chemical status for freshwater bodies.

00:55:46: We'll be putting two of our brand's sort of technical development officers in front of the DG for environment that's in charge of freshwater bodies to talk to them about the importance of brands that use innovation rather than asking for weaker legislation to manufacture.

00:56:05: So we're doing the advocacy part on behalf of the other industry as well.

00:56:09: And that's very much needed.

00:56:15: And we see a lot of omnibus is taking place.

00:56:17: So starting with the EU Green Deal, we had a lot of legislation towards be it transparency, but also towards human rights and social aspect, but also towards climate protection and environmental protection.

00:56:33: But we see a lot of regulation now simplified or even not going into effect.

00:56:46: So it is the right time to stand up and to, especially for the auto industry, which basis is in an intact ecosystem and nature.

00:56:58: Yeah, and I think it's important to remember that it's sometimes there's a bit of inertia from the outdoor industry to want to get directly involved in advocacy work.

00:57:11: But it's really important to remember that all the other industries are doing that.

00:57:16: The EU commissioners are meeting with automotive industry, chemical industry, fossil fuel industry, and they're hearing those viewpoints.

00:57:25: Advocacy is not being an activist and marching with a placard or anything like that.

00:57:33: It's just allowing the... the politicians, whether they're at a national level or an EU level, see the full range of viewpoints around the topic.

00:57:42: And if we're not presenting the viewpoint of the outdoor industry that needs those intact natural wild places to exist, then they're not hearing that.

00:57:52: They're only hearing the viewpoint of the chemical industry or the viewpoint of the ultimatable pharmaceutical industry.

00:57:59: So I think it's important that we're there to give that alternate point of view.

00:58:05: particularly now as we're seeing, I mean, the first omnibus simplification just got passed because the EPP formed a coalition with the right and far right parties to pass that through.

00:58:18: So we're seeing quite a swing in the direction of the EU and what's willing to be passed.

00:58:23: And we're seeing a real kind of communication of EU.

00:58:30: Competitiveness is the most important thing, and environmental regulation is a blocker to that.

00:58:35: That's the sort of narrative that we're seeing at the moment.

00:58:38: It's the narrative that is told.

00:58:40: What we're trying to communicate and what we're doing in Brussels next week is we're taking two businesses that have innovated to remove PFAS and other chemicals from their supply chain so that they then don't need weaker, they don't need chemical derogation from water framework directive.

00:59:03: They're showing that this innovation actually drives competitiveness.

00:59:08: It's strict environmental regulation is not a barrier to competitiveness.

00:59:11: It can actually promote competitiveness and innovation.

00:59:15: I think that that's the narrative that we need to be able to do that.

00:59:19: But unless we can get businesses in front of the commission to speak about this, it's really difficult.

00:59:27: that has for a while been a really good advocacy from FESI, from EOG, but on the sustainability topics, like on the supply chain topics.

00:59:37: But what Iyoko is bringing now is actually advocacy needs to go beyond sustainability of what we're directly affecting.

00:59:45: It needs to go into the broader environmental legislation.

00:59:48: We need advocacy on water framework directive.

00:59:51: We need advocacy on water resilience strategy.

00:59:53: We need advocacy on the implementation of the nature restoration law.

00:59:57: Because although these are not directly tied to your supply chain, they are very much tied to your business survival long term.

01:00:04: And brands need to advocate on these topics too.

01:00:09: And the office there to facilitate that.

01:00:12: Alongside other NGOs, WWF.

01:00:16: policy team in Brussels is excellent as well.

01:00:19: The EEB is excellent.

01:00:21: There are other people that do this too.

01:00:23: IOCRA is probably the easiest way for an outdoor brand to do it, but there are other ways that we're certainly not the only people advocating on this, but we're just a good way for the outdoor business sector to do so.

01:00:38: Absolutely, Dan.

01:00:39: Thank you so much for explaining this and for your hard work for the conservation work and also for advocacy and being the voice for the outer industry towards Brussels as well.

01:00:52: You mentioned also there are other NGOs and other initiatives also working in this direction.

01:01:00: And I think we have a pretty strong community.

01:01:03: that is able to promote the future we all want.

01:01:08: And thank you so much for this conversation.

01:01:12: I really enjoyed it.

01:01:13: And looking forward as well to see you in two weeks time at ISPO as well, and then to also be able to speak and meet in person as well.

01:01:25: Fantastic.

01:01:25: Yeah, looking forward to meeting you.

01:01:28: whether this is going out before ISPO or not, but obviously there will be a lot of talk about advocacy there.

01:01:33: We've got thanks to Green Room Voice for facilitating a panel on advocacy there.

01:01:39: With us advocating, talking about advocacy for biodiversity and nature, Protector Winters will be there, talking about climate advocacy, and it's great out there talking about advocacy for people and participation.

01:01:51: And then also that the visual roadmap for nature positive actions that Green Room Voice has developed will be a really good starting point, a really good tool for businesses to have a look at.

01:02:02: Great.

01:02:04: Looking forward for that.

01:02:05: Thank you so much, Dan.

01:02:07: Thank you.

01:02:10: This was the episode with Dan Yates.

01:02:12: I'm Fabio Nensa for New Horizons, the podcast for anyone who loves the outdoors and cares about the environment in our future.

01:02:20: I hope you've enjoyed this episode.

01:02:22: Please share this with friends and colleagues.

01:02:24: And if you feel inspired to leave a comment, then this would be, of course, super great and make us very happy.

01:02:32: Thank you for listening.